March 2015 Track and Signals Functional Minutes LUL

June 4, 2015

Please find attached the March 2015 LUL track and Signals Functional Minutes


Track and Signals Functional Council Minutes 3 March 2015_RMT Clean





Management Staff Side
Mr Bob Doyle (Head of AP SSL – Chair) Mr Andy Littlechild (RMT)
Gary Warner (Engineering Director), Mr Paul Grant (RMT)
Mr Gary Russell (Head of MIS)Mr Neil Hyde (Head of Permanent Way)Mr Jamie Stapleton (HR Business Partner)Ms Samantha Curniffe (Employee Relations Manager)

Mr Sayara Ali (Employee Relations Support Manager)

Minute Taker???

Mr Peter Ashley (RMT)Mr Paul Jackson (RMT)Mr Mark Harris (RMT)Mr Les Harvey (RMT)

Mr Niall Lynch (RMT)

Mr Paul O’Reilly (RMT)


GUEST: Joe Hickey (Access Solutions Manager), Doug Hammersley (Protection Implementation Manager),

Ben Wells (Unite), Scott Godfrey (RMT)


APOLOGIES: Mr Simon Milburn (Signal Incident Systems Manager), Mr Rick Taylor (Area Infrastructure Manager)


1. Adoption of Previous MinutesMinutes from the previous meeting were agreed.2. Arising & Outstanding Matters

Minutes 11 December Item 17.8 Parity with SSMs

RMT said that this related to SSMs at Osborne house and Baker street and that there was an individual who was paid considerably more than their counterparts. Mr Doyle said that he would give a response on the issue.


3. Previous Actions

Actions of 11th December2014

Action 4, Item 11 Increase in Payment for IRSE Assessments/ Principles Tester

Mr Doyle said that consideration had been put to this matter and concluded that the existing payment was adequate.

The RMT did not accept this answer and believed that the amount of work and changes to the process meant that the existing payment needed to be increased.  FAILURE TO AGREE

RMT also stated that they believed the Payment for Principles Testers was too low.  Mr Milburn to review and reply to the Trade Unions

Action 5, Item 13 – Canteen Facilities –Stratford

Mr Doyle advised that there was no bar on staff eating their own food. He added that staff are required to take off their PPE before entering the canteen facility. The RMT stated that they believed this needed to be relayed to the canteen staff involved

Action closed


Actions of 25th September 2014

Action 3, Item 1.1.4 Closure of Hainault

Mr Doyle said that his investigation had determined that the individual had a substantial pay increase in the same year which was considered to include the payment for site person in charge duties.

Bob Doyle had agreed to meet the individual along with the TU side to discuss the matter


Action 4, Item 1.1.6 Handheld devices

Mr Doyle said that as per the update on the actions list the management team had supplied the bare bones of the draft agreement and they were awaiting TU feedback.


Action 6, Item 1.1.8 Overtime Limit

Management stated that the overtime limit was an average and was reviewed on a job by job basis. It did not include individuals working in other areas such as CPD

4. Recruitment & Transfer List Across Track and Signals

The lists were shared. The RMT stated that th elist were incorrect and needed updating


5. Skills Training Review

[The lists were shared, no issues raised.]


6. Maintenance Capability Update

Mr Doyle said that the Patrolling changes on B&V had been implemented and the changes in regard to the Central line had been agreed in principle.


7. Organisation Update

[There were no updates to give.]


8. Sentinel

Mr Hickey explained that LUL was moving away from LUCAS to Sentinel (the LUCAS contract was expiring on 1st April). He said that from 1st April 2015 there would be no requirement for LUL staff to have a LUCAS card but that they were still expected to maintain their competence. He said that the LUCAS card was only used to gain access to the LU infrastructure. (Post meeting Update – It is now mandatory for LU staff attending worksites to undergo the on-line Worksite Safety Induction on the eZone).


9. Permissioning

Mr Hickey outlined that Permissioning was moving away from people working out for themselves when traction is off to being told. Requirements will be put in the new SCADA system where people can book on and get confirmation back from SCADA to keep traction current off until the track is cleared. He said a Proof of Concept prototype App had been developed by the Innovation team; this App will communicate with a server and utilises QR codes to simplify entering the work booking and sentinel numbers. Potentially some of the set up could be done by the administrator or manager beforehand and the person providing protection would be given a unique booking reference. The system comes back with details of competencies and the work booking.


Mr Hickey explained how track can be booked out as a possession, how to update a working party and check their competencies. He demonstrated how the app would work and that it could be used to increase/decrease track access and where individuals are starting and leaving the track. He said that the system identifies hazards with the use of the Sabre number. A standard declaration is produced with a booking reference which staff can use to book on directly. The QR code can be used by Station Supervisors to go on PICER which is quicker and easier at the station.


RMT queried whether the system would apply at depots; Mr Hickey said this wouldn’t really be the case. He said that the app could pick up if the wrong QR code was scanned for the work that is intended to be done. He informed that it can check if traction current is in a booking, if it’s off and if the last train has left – it then confirms if track access can be granted (alarms etc. can be seen if applicable).


RMT asked what would happen if there was an over-run. They also asked whether staff could leave from different locations if for example they did not get as far as they had intended. Mr Hickey said that the Protection Master should know where staff are going. Mr Hickey confirmed that the change would also be discussed at Tier 2.  He estimated that go live would be in 2019, in the mean time work rules need to be finalised and feedback received on them from users. Mr Hickey said that the contract for SCADA was going out to tender in the middle of March. Mr Warner explained that the current system will be replaced in 2018.


RMT asked what the process would be if the system crashed, Mr Hickey advised that zonal protection and other protection to set people on track.  He said that everything was based on SCADA so if SCADA fails staff wouldn’t go onto the track anyway. RMT felt that assumptions were being made; Mr Hickey explained that this was why he was working with the Trades Unions – to work through assumptions etc.  He said that what was being shown was a prototype to test the waters.


RMT felt that QR codes on platforms would be used to monitor staff whereabouts and times and would be unacceptable. Mr Hickey explained that they would be used to confirm an individual’s location and confirm that traction current was off; this does not necessarily have to be done utilising QR codes as there maybe a better way of confirming location. The QR codes were used as a simple method of showing the concept. RMT asked how management could stop members of the public taking a picture and hacking the system. Mr Doyle stated that this would not be possible as they would not have the necessary code or passwords etc.


The RMT stated that there was massive health and safety issues associated with Permisssioning and that LUL was basicfally asking our members to risk their lives on the say so fo a mobile phone game.  This matter needed to be fully discussed there


The RMT also felt that this would lead to to demise of the TAC’s and other job losses and wanted this  to be discussed further


10. ACAS Agreement and associated meetings i.e. incident/rainbow

RMT stated that they did not accept Rainbow but that as part of the Acas Agreement, any case would be reviewed prior to any meeting on the matter. They said that there had been a case on the District line that had to be stopped as it had proceeded without Mr Doyle’s review. The RMT stated that they was to be understand his review process and have a line of communication on this review


11. Changing the framework agreement with reference to the training selection

RMT said the Signals framework agreement needed adjusting. It had been agreed at an Adhoc Directors review on stations to introduce Support Fitter Grades on stations only. Also there was issues with the signals selection process for courses and it may be discriminatory. It was suggested that therefore selection moved to a trade test undertaken by the school


12. Introduction of Support Fitter (Stations)

Mr Doyle said that there was a Directors Review as in 11 above. The only outstanding issue was agreeing the grade progress requirements to Support Tech in that area


13. Apprenticeship Issues: Tubelines – Pensions/Four Counties

RMT wanted to know what input Four Counties had and felt that LU should stop using them. Mr Doyle said that there were discussion going on as to why they had failed the OFSTED inspection and how LU may be able to help them until there is another solution.

Action: Acquire and share details of Four Counties involvement in apprentice training and share with RMT.

RMT stated that they believed that LUL apprentices taking jobs on Tube Lines would lose their right to remain in the TfL Pension Scheme. This they believed was against agreements to with this union and removal of anyone from the scheme would be unacceptable. Bob Doyle said he would investigate


14. CPD Resource planning for Christmas 2015 and review of leave

There was a query over the resources that may be needed over this period.  Mr Hyde advised that the 2014 arrangements had been successful and that the involvement of the RMT had been useful. He said that definitive knowledge of the work bank for this year was not yet known but the expectation was that a similar resource level would be required as was used in 2014.

It was agreed to review the staffing levels by July so as avoid any issues with resourcing as occured in 2014


15. Christmas and Boxing Day Payments for all Staff

The RMT stated that their members were aggrieved over Christmas Payments mainly for Christmas Day and Boxing Day. Mr Doyle said that if the RMT put something forward it could be discussed. RMT said that Tubelines staff were being paid and LU staff were not, as were LUL drivers.


16. Night Tube Update

Mr Doyle said that the issue had been included in the pay discussions and that the matter now sat at Company Council. RMT said that LUL had asked for functional position statements to be created. Mr Doyle said that there were certain things such as Banked Rest Day’s that needed clarify as to what was in his gift or within the remit of the Company Council discussions.


17. UKPN Update

An update was given with regard to the proposed new Framework for the Power Distribution Group. The Framework had been sent to company council for ratification and RMT and Unite had said that there were some matters that they wanted to take away before it could be ratified to discuss with their members. A further JWP meeting was scheduled for the following day.


18. Stores re-org position (Plant & Equipment Manager) to be made available to light duties staff

RMT said that his post was originally amongst talks in SSL and BCV. They said that that role is being undertaken by NPL that the RMT wanted to be made permanent.

Mr Hyde said that the role needs to be looked at and management need to decide whether the role should remain and if so where it sits. He suggested that it should be looked at by Denise O’Connor as part of the stores review.

The RMT also raised why a former employee was being used to run an informal stors in Signals at Acton and wnated her removed and the role offered to someone who was medically restricted or other internal staff

Action: Liaise with Denise O’Connor re status and continuation of Plant & Materials Manager role


19. Cody Road, Lillie Bridge Update

RMT stated that they were aware that the proposed change was a work in progress, no decision had been made. Management were reviewing what RMT had put forward. Miss Curniffe stated that the RMT proposal was similar to the proposal that had been put forward by management and another meeting was scheduled for 1st April to continue the discussion. RMT said that John Lambert would ascertain what happened to Stores staff and that while staff would be spoken to they did not want staff to be asked to agree to anything.


20. Review of TBTC Training given by Stratford Staff

RMT said that at the moment Tubelines were delivering the training, the course is so complicated that people are struggling to pass it. They said that it was a 3 week course with a 3 hour written paper and a half day practical.  RMT said that they had concerns that the course should be testing on what’s taught and trained.

Action: Paul Campbell to review the syllabus


21. Internal Track Staff side-lined in favour of external labour

RMT said that they want a framework for Track as they felt that certain work should be carried out internally. Mr Russell said that a meeting would be arranged to discuss overtime and work to be done by internal labour.

Action: Mr Russell to convene a meeting regarding overtime and work to be done by internal labour.


22. Use of agency signals staff i.e. Kelly Rail at Acton

RMT said that they wanted a reduction in the use of contractors and that they thought that the posts would not be difficult to fill.

Action: Mr Hyde to look at issue outside of the Functional Council as long as there was a guarantee that shifts would be covered.


23. FRC Rep position in with Ops Managers

RMT said that they did not agree why their colleague was not recognised as a rep, they had an email from some time ago which stated that she was a rep. Miss Curniffe said that representative status had to be looked at in line with the machinery which states that for Signals Maintenance and Incident Managers there are spaces for 2 RMT representatives. If the RMT want this individual to occupy a seat and there is a vacancy there was no problem with this taking place. However, in the event that there is no vacancy and both current incumbents want to remain an additional space would not be created.

Action: Ms Curniffe to formalise the position with regard to the FRC rep


24. CPD Denial of access to LU Grievance procedure for TDU employee

RMT said that they have a member in TDU that put in a grievance and was told it would not be heard. They said that it had been raised at Stage 2 with George McInulty who had received some advice from PMA management that they did not agree with. Mr Hyde stated that the legal advice was that the issue was not a grievance. Miss Curniffe advised that the issue had been raised outside of the grievance procedure and that the PMA manager was arranging a meeting to discuss the issue with the individual and his rep.



Meeting Closed 15:25  


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